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Icecold

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Message 6499 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 1:17:23 UTC - in response to Message 6498.  


I have 126k of the WU on my machines. 42k have already been processed and the remainder will be finished before the next Sprint is announced. If another project is chosen I will turn in the WU on the 7th. If ODLK is chosen I will begin turning them in on the 8th.

None will be thrown away!


Just to preface this - I'm genuinely just trying to understand here and not trying to be negative. I have some honest questions as somebody that has been doing DC for awhile, but is new to Formula-Boinc competitions, and I don't at all speak for my TeAm -

What is the purpose of still downloading all the tasks even after 500k+ are grabbed? I'm interested in ODLK for the science, but also as a marathon project and potential sprint project. With that said, I'm not going to contribute to effectively DDOS'ing their server by doing one of the scripts to keep doing a BOINC update. If I manually do a BOINC update it has no tasks, so it seems based on how quickly the little work that's being generated is grabbed that it is likely other teams are doing whatever it takes to grab all the work. I guess to me - is it not enough that those teams grabbed 500,000+ tasks and caused a small project to run out of work, but now those teams are literally trying to leave 0 tasks for anybody else? It's clear this small project cannot handle 500,000 tasks uploaded at once since their server struggles to respond timely on a normal day, so what's the point on slamming heir server in this way? If ODLK is selected as the Sprint, which would be likely based on the big players grabbing all the tasks, then I don't understand why grubbing 500,000 tasks isn't enough. Why continue to thrash their server by grabbing all new tasks? Interest of full disclosure - I grabbed 1,000 tasks when I noticed the run on tasks before they were all gone, but i have no intention of hammering their server any further and am just quietly processing those tasks.

I'm a "n00b" on this competitive DC stuff in a lot of ways, but I think at the point where a small project is ran out of work and the admin has to wonder what if there's a bug in the software or what the heck is going on, hope that the bunker of tasks is completed, etc. that maybe the bunkering, behind the scenes scheming, etc. has gone too far. Can XS/TSBT/Seti USA?/UK BOINC Team? not just beat all the other teams in a straight up no nonsense contest? It certainly seems they have the resources to just compete straight up and probably could beat most of us without wrecking a small project by taking all their tasks and then voting for it. What is the fun in a rigged contest?
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scole of TSBT

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Message 6500 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 2:14:34 UTC

The project is not harmed. The WUs will get completed. If anything it is getting more crunching done than normal. Without bunkering or any other strategy, you may as well just sum up the total GFLOPS of each team and declare them the winner. That's not what a contest is about in my opinion. If it's just about the science to you, don't worry about the comps and just crunch.
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Bryan

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Message 6501 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 2:39:14 UTC

@Icecold - well n00b :), some good questions but also some bad assumptions.

1. Competitions are based on the credits that validate from the start time to the finish time (with the exception of PG challenges). One technique to score higher in a competition is to "bunker". That means you load up WU from a project, shut down the network, and then report the WU to the project after the start time. You can begin building a bunker as soon as the project deadline is greater than the start time.

Some people, like me, feel this is a valid method to run a competition. Others disagree and they are certainly welcome to their opinion.

2. You are making an "assumption" that people/teams are grabbing all the work so others can't have any. The reality is people are trying to get enough work from the project so they can bunker for themselves for the 7 day deadline the project gives. I seriously doubt that anyone is taking WU so other people can't get any. In my case I downloaded 126k WU and that is the amount of work I can do in 5 days. I didn't bite off more than I chew.

3. DDOS means slamming a server with enough requests that it can not handle any of them. The BOINC server has a limit that determines how often you can contact the server and request work. If you make a request more often than that "time out" period you do not receive ANY work at all. The shortest period on any project I can remember is 2 minutes between request and there is one that requires 15 minutes. On ODLK I set my machine to request work every 5 minutes .... I don't think that quite qualifies as a DDOS attack.

4. There are very few projects left for the FB Sprint so some folks are doing "speculative" bunkering. Meaning they are guessing what the project will be and speculatively building bunkers. Sometimes you hit it right and other times you don't. But in either case the project winds up getting a lot of work done for them.

Please don't pull the holier-than-thou crap
. TAAT has members who are masters at bunkering. If you really want to know how to bunker just post on your team's forums and you'll learn everything you could ever want to know.

that maybe the bunkering, behind the scenes scheming, etc. has gone too far. Can XS/TSBT/Seti USA?/UK BOINC Team? not just beat all the other teams in a straight up no nonsense contest? It certainly seems they have the resources to just compete straight up and probably could beat most of us without wrecking a small project by taking all their tasks and then voting for it. What is the fun in a rigged contest?
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VietOZ

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Message 6502 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 2:39:42 UTC

I'm loading up In progress (50036)


















oh wait, that's not ODLK. My bad
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Icecold

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Message 6503 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 2:46:40 UTC - in response to Message 6500.  

The project is not harmed. The WUs will get completed. If anything it is getting more crunching done than normal. Without bunkering or any other strategy, you may as well just sum up the total GFLOPS of each team and declare them the winner. That's not what a contest is about in my opinion. If it's just about the science to you, don't worry about the comps and just crunch.


I somewhat agree with you, but this is going to wreck their server. It's well known that their server has performance issues. Any WU's that aren't actually completed and turned in are WU's that could have went to a normal project participant. Viet Oz already told the project scientist that it's likely the tasks would be thrown away if the project isn't chosen for the sprint. Spinning up BOINC instances isn't something only known to TSBT/XS - should I spin up 30 instances per machine and wreck T Brada and every other small project before next sprint in case it's chosen so nobody else has the chance to grab WU's? It's not that other teams don't know how to do it they just don't'. I wouldn't be surprised if this project admin on this says screw it and just shuts off the server like happened with Wanless.

To be honest - it's 50% the comps and 50% the science for me, but I'm NOT willing to do anything I consider unethical. After less than a year of trying to do the competitions I'm left wondering if it's worth it. I don't mind losing, but it seems clear that other teams are not playing in good faith, and if it's a week before the project is announced and I already can't get WU's for what they've voted on I consider that bad faith. Again - I don't speak for my team - but what fun would Formula Boinc be with just a few teams that are aligned with each other semi competing against each other? TSBT/XS already probably already win the 'gflops per team' aspect why also do shady stuff like grab every task a small project has a week before the sprint?
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VietOZ

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Message 6504 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 2:50:58 UTC - in response to Message 6503.  

Viet Oz already told the project scientist that it's likely the tasks would be thrown away if the project isn't chosen for the sprint.


lmfao even Nat got it and you don't?


This is not serious.
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Profile Natalia Makarova
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Message 6505 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:11:42 UTC

I see two canceled Sprints

02/04/2020 17:00 (UTC) - 05/04/2020 16:59 (UTC)
Canceled
04/06/2020 20:00 (UTC) - 07/06/2020 19:59 (UTC)
Canceled

Is this tactic of some teams the reason?
What should other teams do in the competition if there are no tasks in the project?
My opinion: the Sprint policy should be changed.
My new article "SOLS and SODLS"
in Russian
https://yadi.sk/d/nvdI6TgBrKv72A
in English https://yadi.sk/d/VeY9bx6_q6CcZg
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Bryan

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Message 6506 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:17:02 UTC - in response to Message 6504.  

should I spin up 30 instances per machine and wreck T Brada and every other small project before next sprint in case it's chosen so nobody else has the chance to grab WU's?


Hey Icecold, feel free to represent your team, TAAT, any way you choose. If that's what you feel TaaT stands for them go for it. Personally I've always had a higher opinion of them than that.

VietOZ was joking and I told you I would complete all WU I downloaded. If you have a problem with it then I don't know what to tell you. ODLK is going to get "at least" 126k WU from me whether it is chosen for the sprint or not.
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Bryan

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Message 6507 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:19:56 UTC - in response to Message 6505.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2020, 3:21:42 UTC

I see two canceled Sprints

02/04/2020 17:00 (UTC) - 05/04/2020 16:59 (UTC)
Canceled
04/06/2020 20:00 (UTC) - 07/06/2020 19:59 (UTC)
Canceled

Is this tactic of some teams the reason?
What should other teams do in the competition if there are no tasks in the project?
My opinion: the Sprint policy should be changed.


No it has nothing to do with tactics. The FB Sprints followed the same dates as the real Formula 1 racing season. When the F1 season was interrupted because of Covid-19 then they cancelled the Formula BOINC sprints. Later they implemented FB sprints on their own schedule.
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Profile Natalia Makarova
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Message 6508 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:25:03 UTC - in response to Message 6507.  

No it has nothing to do with tactics. The FB Sprints followed the same dates as the real Formula 1 racing season. When the F1 season was interrupted because of Covid-19 then they cancelled the Formula BOINC sprints. Later they implemented FB sprints on their own schedule.

Thanks for the info.
My new article "SOLS and SODLS"
in Russian
https://yadi.sk/d/nvdI6TgBrKv72A
in English https://yadi.sk/d/VeY9bx6_q6CcZg
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VietOZ

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Message 6509 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:26:14 UTC

other teams are not playing in good faith, and if it's a week before the project is announced and I already can't get WU's for what they've voted on I consider that bad faith


lemme ask you this. When Rake Sprint got pick, nobody has work but TaaT. Lucky? maybe ... shady? maybe. Nobody knows


TSBT/XS already probably already win the 'gflops per team' aspect why also do shady stuff like grab every task a small project has a week before the sprint?


i don't understand why y'all always assuming stuff without facts.

There are 5 Sprints left
possible projects are ODLK, ODLK1, Amicable, NFS, NF, and SRBase. Cosmo is up and down, T.Brada hosted on a Rpi. Seti and Enigma are dead. Yafu won't have enough work. And Gerasism is only Windows.
What's so hard to predict?

500k of tasks while it sounds like a lot ... but with the current hardware that teams are having, it's not that much. xii5ku was averaging 700k / day on here (maybe higher... but i'm just doing an example) ... so that's like 70k of WUs he can process per day. A 7 days bunker he can finish 490k of WUs just by himself if he thinks ODLK can be pick. Think about it. Sorry xii5ku to bring your name up as an example.

Y'all just came a little late. I hope ODLK gets pick to create more ******* lol

but I think it's gonna be NFS (bonus for y'all)
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Icecold

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Message 6510 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:27:52 UTC - in response to Message 6506.  

should I spin up 30 instances per machine and wreck T Brada and every other small project before next sprint in case it's chosen so nobody else has the chance to grab WU's?


Hey Icecold, feel free to represent your team, TAAT, any way you choose. If that's what you feel TaaT stands for them go for it. Personally I've always had a higher opinion of them than that.

VietOZ was joking and I told you I would complete all WU I downloaded. If you have a problem with it then I don't know what to tell you. ODLK is going to get "at least" 126k WU from me whether it is chosen for the sprint or not.


I specifically said I don't represent the team in my post. IF YOU LOOK AT FREE-DC YOU'LL NOTICE I'M LIKE 0.0005% OF THEIR POINTS - I DON'T QUALIFY TO REPRESENT THE TEAM. My post was my own opinion. With that said, you guys are intentionally taking all of the tasks FOR A SERVER WE ALL KNOW IS ON SOMEBODY'S HOME PC and can't handle it and are going to dump it after you collude together to vote on the sprint project. Seriously, congratulations. You guys have won DC! You are actively trying to make Formula BOINC so rigged and pointless that it's just TSBT and XS back and forth getting second and third, but at least Gridcoin will keep beating you guys. I'm struggling to understand what world you guys thinks any newcomers will come to DC and not think this is absurd and bail.
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Bryan

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Message 6511 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:51:27 UTC - in response to Message 6510.  

@Icecold - so let me get this straight ... I want to make sure I understand correctly.

If I make a statement that I'm not speaking for my team, SUSA, then I'm free to badmouth/insult any other team by name and it's okay? Is that correct.

I think you need to learn some manners from your teammates, there are some really good folks on TAAT.

IMHO
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Profile Natalia Makarova
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Message 6512 - Posted: 4 Oct 2020, 3:55:20 UTC

All opinions are expressed.
Let's temporarily stop the discussion.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that I have a manual project running.
I have science, but no machines.
I am assisted by an assistant from Austria.
We work together with him.
I developed 544 mini-experiments.
We must fulfill them.

If you want to help a research project, take mini-experiments and do them.
One mini-project on a good car takes about a day.
On my PC, one mini-experiments takes 2-3 weeks.

See this thread
https://boinc.progger.info/odlk/forum_thread.php?id=155

Write me please.
My new article "SOLS and SODLS"
in Russian
https://yadi.sk/d/nvdI6TgBrKv72A
in English https://yadi.sk/d/VeY9bx6_q6CcZg
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Profile Natalia Makarova
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Message 6543 - Posted: 7 Oct 2020, 17:03:37 UTC

Не угадали!

10/08/2020 15:00 (UTC) - 10/11/2020 14:59 (UTC)
NumberFields@home

Порочная практика.
IMHO.
My new article "SOLS and SODLS"
in Russian
https://yadi.sk/d/nvdI6TgBrKv72A
in English https://yadi.sk/d/VeY9bx6_q6CcZg
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PecosRiverM

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Message 6544 - Posted: 7 Oct 2020, 20:31:45 UTC - in response to Message 6543.  

Not Bad.
Somebody can't count.

Project number of votes
ODLK 4
NumberFields @ home 2
ODLK1 1
Seti @ home 1
Enigma @ home 1
Cosmology @ home 1

Just say'n

Who said the goal was for a "Sprint"?
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[H]Skillz

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Message 6545 - Posted: 7 Oct 2020, 20:37:25 UTC - in response to Message 6544.  

Not Bad.
Somebody can't count.

Project number of votes
ODLK 4
NumberFields @ home 2
ODLK1 1
Seti @ home 1
Enigma @ home 1
Cosmology @ home 1

Just say'n

Who said the goal was for a "Sprint"?


Perhaps someone knew this project can't handle a Sprint and omitted it.

Guess XS/TSBT/SUSA/UKBT will have to try next Sprint to coordinate their votes to pick a project.
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xii5ku

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Message 6546 - Posted: 7 Oct 2020, 21:28:34 UTC - in response to Message 6544.  
Last modified: 7 Oct 2020, 21:36:27 UTC

PecosRiverM wrote:
Somebody can't count.
The first project in the list had 0 tasks ready to send.
The next project in the list had non-zero ready to send.
Somebody could count at least this far.

PecosRiverM wrote:
Who said the goal was for a "Sprint"?
I have no idea about your goals.
However, a statement about formula-boinc.org's goals can be found right at the home page.
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PecosRiverM

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Message 6548 - Posted: 7 Oct 2020, 22:45:07 UTC - in response to Message 6546.  

PecosRiverM wrote:
Somebody can't count.
The first project in the list had 0 tasks ready to send.

Never stopped them before.
but it's neither here nor there.

PecosRiverM wrote:
Who said the goal was for a "Sprint"?
I have no idea about your goals.


Those are what I was meaning.

I know I managed to make the "Goal" I was shooting for and using only 33% of my systems.
Just say'n
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scole of TSBT

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Message 6549 - Posted: 8 Oct 2020, 0:12:50 UTC - in response to Message 6546.  
Last modified: 8 Oct 2020, 0:58:59 UTC

The next project in the list had non-zero ready to send.

Why did this project stop generating work?
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